Will Venable Batting Second and the Pain It Causes My Soul

I’ve been reading select chapters from The Book by Tom Tango, Mitchel Lichtman, and Andrew Dolphin. It is a book about “playing the percentages in baseball”. The chapter I keep coming back to for further reading and understanding is called Batting (Dis) Order and relates to creating the optimal batting order with the players on a team. The reason I return to this chapter is because the sight of Will Venable batting second for the Padres, a reoccurring trend, makes me want to vomit. And I’m trying to understand it all*.

*I’m trying to understand Bud Black’s rationale but more specifically why I have yet to actually vomit. Seriously.

I want to try and distill the chapter down to its basic elements. I think I have a grasp of the chapter but will readily admit that I am not a statistician. Feel free to add insight or correct me where I have erred. I won’t yell at you in all-caps-internet-style.

Before we tackle The Book, let’s wrap our arms around . . . The Will Venable.

Who is Will Venable?

You know who Will Venable is, right? He’s the Princeton grad who focused on basketball and came to the game of baseball a bit too late. Consequently, the Padres have been willing to give him more than a fair chance to make RF his permanent home.

Will Venable has tools. Who doesn’t want a player with tools building a residence in their outfield? Alas, Will Venable is a tool-tease. His defense and speed never sleep but he is prone to painful cold spells with the bat. And he lacks the skills to get on base regularly when he’s scuffling with the bat. And he can’t really hit LHP so he only plays against RHP. Whether this is a function of not getting a chance regularly or reality, I do not know. But no matter the case, when Will Venable gets hot boy do we begin to drool. But then he goes cold again and you begin to drink. And by you, I mean me. But probably you too.

Let’s look at the numbers on ol’ (he’s freaking 30 now!) Will Venable.

The Obvious And Not So Obvious (but still pretty obvious if you really think about it)

When constructing a line-up there are two things that a manager must try to balance.

First, a manager wants to get his best hitters the most number of plate appearances. Obvious, no? Chase Headley is near the top of the line-up because he is good. Nick Hundley and the pitcher du jour anchor the bottom of the line-up because they are bad. According to The Book, from 1999-2002, the leadoff hitter in NL parks averaged 4.80 PAs per game while the eighth hitter averaged 3.98 PAs and the ninth hitter averaged 3.86. These numbers may appear small but they are significant across 162 games.

Secondly, a manager wants to place these top hitters in scenarios where they will see the most opportunities to drive-in runners who are on base. This also seems intuitive but how do you know precisely how many runners are likely to be on base across the course of a season for each spot in the batting order? Trust me, you will know. There are statisticians crunching these numbers and they are available for all to see.

In summation: Give the best hitters the most opportunities and order them according to the likelihood that they will bat with runners on base. Because scoring is important.

Traditional Thinking

When I was a kid the traditional thoughts were to put a fast guy batting lead-off. Place a guy second who can “handle the bat well” – someone who can hit and run and bunt and move runners over. The best hitter bats third. The most powerful hitter bats 4th. The second most powerful hitter bats 5th. One of my favorite players was Don Mattingly. Don Mattingly the first baseman. Not Don Mattingly the douchecanoe managing the Los Angeles Dodgers. Don Mattingly batted third because he was the best hitter on a succession of crappy Yankee teams. Tradition.

In summation: In the past, baseball people thought one way, and in the present, Don Mattingly is a douchecanoe.

Your Best Hitters

The Book says to bat your best hitters in either the first, second, or fourth spots in the batting order. But where do you place each one of those “best hitters”?

The first batter will always have the most PAs but he will also bat with the fewest runners on base during a game so putting your most powerful hitter here is probably not the best plan (in MLB). The player in this slot should have on base skills. The ability to beat out infield grounders and steal bases are nice skills to have as is the ability to walk. But you would be best served with Ricky Henderson. So go get Ricky. Ricky would agree.

The second and fourth hitters present an interesting quandary. The #2 batter receives 5% more PAs than the #4 batter across a season but the #4 also receives more opportunities to bat with more runners on base. The advantages to each of these positions in the batting order basically negate one another. If the two hitters in question are similar put the player with better on base skills batting second and the guy with more XBH power batting fourth.

In summation: Put the best batters in a position to bat frequently and order them based on their respective skill-sets so that the maximum number of runs can be scored.

The Next Tier

I mentioned the traditional thinking of batting your best hitter in the #3 spot but according to The Book the top three hitters have each been placed in positions other than third in the line-up. So who bats third? The 4th best batter? Actually no. The Book suggests batting your fourth best hitter in the #5 spot of the order and your fifth best hitter in the #3 spot. I’m still trying to wrap-my mind around The Book’s rationale on these two placements but it is immaterial to my quest, which is to remove Will Venable from the 2nd spot in the batting order.

In Summation: I’m not a statistician.

The Bottom of the Beer Barrel

The 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th batters should be placed in descending order of ability. That sounds easy.


So what should the top of the Padres batting order look like?

I’m going to take the five top hitters, in my mind, who play for the Padres. What constitutes the “best”, you ask? If my left pinky depended on a Padre getting a hit who would I choose to bat to ensure that my pinky was not severed and tossed in a tub of ice to be raced to the emergency room? Choosing a Padre under this rigid scenario indicates without a shadow of a doubt that I think they’re the best*.

* My left pinky is kind of gnarled already, but if it were hacked off  it would scare the daughters, therefore it has value.

So I’ve got the following guys: Chase Headley, Chris Denorfia, Carlos Quentin, Everth Cabrera, and Yonder Alonso (with Jedd Gyorko moving up the list). Here’s how I would order them:

1st: Everth Cabrera SS

(Not one of the top three hitters on the team but his improved on-base skills coupled with his speed do a nice job of setting the table)

2nd: Chase Headley 3B

(Chase is the best hitter on the team. He has on-base skills. He also has speed. Does he have as much power as he displayed last year? I’m not sure. Let’s bat him 2nd.)

3rd: Chris Denorfia CF

(The guy can hit. I don’t know why he doesn’t play more. And #Norf)

4th: Carlos Quentin LF

(Carlos has the most raw power on the team. You saw what he did to Greinke’s collarbone.)

5th: Yonder Alonso 1B

(This could get switched up when Grandal returns. Hmmm.)


That’s the problem with this line-up. It has a Hmmm-ing effect on my mind. I don’t have a true sense of who’s who or how much of a difference there is between each player.

There are only a few things I am certain of:

  • Will Venable is not the best hitter on the team therefore he does not deserve the most PAs.
  • Will Venable does not have the type of on-base skills necessary to hit at the top of the order.
  • Will Venable has an interesting hairline.

So Why Is Will Venable Batting 2nd?

Besides the fact that Bud Black hates each one of us, I think the answer can be found in Venable’s 2012 splits where the numbers show a level of success in the #2 slot. In 31 starts batting 2nd, Will Venable’s OBP was .409 and his SLG was .534. Those are pretty awesome numbers despite being compiled over a fairly low number of plate appearances (134). Is Bud Black basing this year’s decisions entirely on Will Venable’s success last year while batting 2nd, during a limited number of games? Let’s look at some more numbers:

These are Will Venable’s career numbers while batting second: .282/.358/.486

Again, they aren’t bad. Again, they were compiled in a fairly small sample of 64 games started. If you examine Venable’s numbers you’ll see a guy whose primary function has been as a lead-off hitter (a not so successful one at that) and when not leading-off he’s received starts every where except 4th and 9th. You’ll also see that Will Venable is 30 years old. And if you watched last night’s game against the Cardinals, again, he’s a tease.

Will Venable butchered his first three ABs of the game before he hit a HR in the 7th inning. The HR did not have any bearing on the game, only providing an insurance run (and everyone knows, Huston Street needs three insurance runs), yet everyone raved about his performance. He leads the team in HRs!!!

Who is Will Venable in 2013? It’s still a small sample (the story of Will Venable’s career) but while hitting 2nd Will Venable’s slash line looks like this: .214/.290/.381

By any standard that’s a horrendous set of numbers. But for the player batting second in a line-up it’s downright criminal.

Where to, for the Young (Old) Mr. Venable?

The #2 spot in the batting order is not for Will Venable but that’s not to say he cannot be placed somewhere in the line-up where his skill set can deliver for the team. Venable has experienced success while batting lower in the line-up (again, small sample) and could serve as a catalyst for setting-up the top of the line-up where the speedy Cabrera and the Padres new #2 hitter, Chase Headley, wait. Choosing the unconventional route of reconfiguring the line-up could be the key to a potent Padres line-up becoming downright explosive.

So what will the future hold for the San Diego Padres? I really don’t know. Kyle Blanks is hot and both Yasmani Grandal and Cameron Maybin will be returning soon. For me the water is murky, clouded with uncertainty. But not for Bud Black. Black appears to love Will Venable right where he is . . . and that’s too bad.


As stated earlier, I tried to distill The Book‘s chapter on Batting (Dis) Order into an easy to understand format. If you looked at the chapter however, what you would see is a far more detailed account of the events that occur during a game and over the span of a season. In addition to the charts presented by Tango et. al. there are other scenarios open to consideration such as where to place a batter with speed, whether strikeouts should be factored into positioning, and the impact of batting the pitcher 8th. It’s a fascinating (and challenging) piece of reading material.

I contribute to Padres Public on Thursday mornings and when I’m feeling particularly inspired. I can also be found on twitter at @AvengingJM where I write derogatory things about the playing time Will Venable receives, 7 days a week.

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  • Love the shoutout of Will’s hairline haha! Great article!

  • I do not disagree with your core message: Venable should not be batting second (and secondary, the whole lineup needs a do-over). The narrative is just a little messed up though.

    Will is never likely to be more than a platoon bat. He is one-half of a great 3rd/4th OF platoon with Chris Denorfia. Yet Will gets all the hate and Deno gets all the love. From 2011 to the current season, Deno leads Will in WRC+ (120 v. 110), DRS (14 v. 5), while Will gets a big leg-up in UBR (9.6 v. 2.1). If you’re a fan of fWAR, Venable leads Denorfia 4.5 to 4.0. All of this to say, they’re not so different after all.

    So why does Deno get all the love and Venable get all the hate? The home run point especially reminds me of Justin Upton’s detractors in Arizona. He never hits those homers in clutch situations, they’ll say. That home run had no effect on the game, they might mention with the gift of hindsight. Venable doesn’t have the ability to save his home runs for when they matter most, nor does any other player. Is the issue somewhat tied up in race? Is Denorfia a gritty-grinder and Venable a toolsy underachiever (see previous question)?

    On a less serious note, my ideal lineups:

    v. L

    v. R

    • Race? Really?

      I don’t think Will Venable is an underachiever. He focused on basketball instead of baseball and it curbed his growth. Which is too bad because he has some skills.

      Regarding the numbers: I think Norf gets love because he plays against both RHP and LHP whereas Will does not. Will is always put into platoon situations (where he thrives) and Deno starts against a variety of starting pitchers. Maybe that’s where the love comes from. Or maybe Will teases us more with “what could have been” and it becomes maddening.

      • Really not trying to be a rabble-rouser, but how else can you explain how two players that are near mirror images of each other in terms of value elect such polarizing responses? I don’t see how people may appreciate Deno/depreciate Venable simply based on the fact that Will’s the more limited of the platoon partners by wRC+ splits. You could even make the argument that Will in fact starts against a greater variety of starting pitchers simply based on the handedness of pitchers (RHP make up 70% of all pitchers, not sure about starters alone). Still don’t see why that would make people hate Venable and love Deno though.

        Not gonna get super evangelical (or any moreso, rather) on this one, but let me turn this part around: if Venable teases us with what could’ve been, why don’t we expect more from Chris Denorfia? After all, Venable’s only been pursuing baseball seriously since 2003 if Wikipedia’s correct. Why is it in ten years, Venable’s been able to become a comparable major leaguer to a guy who’s likely been focused soley on baseball his whole life?

        Mayhaps we could lament what Venable could have been, but ultimately we should step back and begin to assess his actual production, instead of what we expected him to be. Measured against the league, he’s +/- replacement level, and that has a fair bit of value.

      • Do people “hate” Will Venable? He frustrates me to no end but I wouldn’t say I hate him. I wrote this speaking strictly for myself not some disgruntled segment of the fan base. I am but one person, certainly not “people”.

        And in the end this really isn’t about Will Venable versus Chris Denorfia. It’s about NOT batting Will Venable second.

      • Perhaps hate is too strong, but I do notice the disjunction among the fanbase, not just yourself. Probably should’ve mentioned that before I got going. Anyways, great work AJM.

      • srp

        I’m a Princeton basketball fan, and while I’m sure Will’s decision to pursue baseball was probably best for him given his interests, he might have been an awesome two-guard in the NBA. Against major-conference opposition, perimeter defenders simply could not stay in front of him when he had the ball. Plus he was a long, quick, athletic defender. If he ‘d worked on his jump shot as hard as he has learning to hit a baseball…

        So, like many unusually gifted people, he’s doomed to be judged by “what might have been” standards.

    • #Norf

    • #Norf can’t be Deno, because #Norf is #Norf

  • The way I understand it, you don’t want one of your best hitters batting third because in the National League, he comes up too many times with no one on base and two outs. So he can’t do much damage with no one on, and then if he makes an out he hits last in the next inning. I’d like to see Yonder there (between Chase and Quentin) because he hits lefties slightly worse. So if a manager brings in a lefty for Yonder, he’s either burning him for just one out, or Quentin gets to face a lefty. Both situations seem advantageous for the Padres.

  • I’m not a statistician either (not even sure I spelled that right), but I do know that in a game with as many numbers as baseball, you can probably find some to back up almost any argument you want to make about a given player’s worth.

    I’m figuring Buddy is picking his lineups based on lefty-righty matchups as much as anything else. So, one might well look at wOBA, a metric developed by Tango to try to best capture a player’s offensive value, against RHPs and LHPs in deciding your lineup. If your name is Buddy.

    So, against RHP, using a minimum of 80 PAs, here’s your top five guys so far for 2013:
    Headley, Hundley, Venable, Quentin and Alonso

    So…lead off with Headley or Venable? And HUNDLEY?!?! Um…. But anyway, there’s Will, in the list of your best offensive weapons when a righty is on the mound. Maybe second. Maybe.

    If we expand to include 2012 stats with 2013, we get these guys:
    Headley, Grandal — oops, Quentin, Venable, Alonso and Gyorko.

    Same group, except Hundley is gone due to last year’s dismal performance, Grandal is out because he’s not available, and Gyorko, who was in 6th position in the 2013 numbers, joins the pack. Venable still the 3rd best guy.

    What about vs. LHP? I thought you’d never ask. With a minimum 30 PAs, here’s the 2013 top guys:
    Blanks, Norf, Gyorko, E-Cab, Alonso

    Note: No Headley. Also no Venable.

    Doing the same 2012-2013 combo, we get:
    Blanks, Forsythe — oops, Grandal — oops, Norf, Quentin, Gyorko, Guzman

    Frankly, Scarlet, I’m glad I’m not a manager.

  • rwchargers

    Venable batting 2nd has made me want to vomit all year! You don’t need to read the book to figure that out. Don’t know what Black is thinking!

  • SpeakingFrankly

    I know I’m late to the chat but… Why is Headley batting 3rd? Today is June 21st and Headley has been in a season long slump. How many days in a row does Black choose to put the worst position hitter in the 3rd spot? Taking all the info posted from “The Book” where does it say, only use last years batting results! Headley’s LOB stats are off the charts. I feel certain the opposing manager is telling his exhausted pitcher, “hold on, Headley is coming to bat, you’ll get out of the inning.” How do we get these facts thru to Black? How many more victories would we have if a .270 batter came up with RISP instead of Headley’s .222 (during a hot streak).